Interview with Jan Parys

The economy

Sarmatian Review: It appears that a policy of laissez-faire toward small businesses in Poland has been extremely effective. The large state-run industries, including those newly privatized, appear to be going broke with astounding regularity. How do you account for this dramatic difference in performance?

Jan Parys: Privatization is necessary, a first step toward the free market. You are right, small businesses are now in private hands, and how to privatize the large ones is a problem. There are many big factories, and it is not easy to privatize 2,000 enterprises quickly. It is a process. Ms. Thatcher privatized twenty big companies during her ten-year tenure as Prime Minister. We must speed it up, but we do not have the experts.


In June 1992, the Interior Ministry published a list of members of parliament who have been agents of the communist secret police in the past. The list contained 62 names.
SR: Why are the big enterprises so inefficient and unprofitable?

JP: A lot of them have bad managers, members of the former nomenklatura. The second reason is that worldwide recession affected Poland in a very painful way. The government is partly responsible for this situation. The recession in Poland has been on for three years, and that's too long, and that is the fault of the government. Inflation has been reduced but interest rates are too high. They now are 60% per year. It is not possible to invest and create economic dynamics with such interest rates.

SR: Is it correct to say that the managers of the reorganized Polish industry are often junior members of the former nomenklatura retrained by Americans not in the methods of efficient production of high quality goods but in the keeping of accounts along the disputed lines of MBA training. American MBAs are trained in marketing and finance, not in production.

JP: Yes, our manager class continues to be composed of the young generation of the old nomenklatura. This group of people was offered possibilities to attend courses and training sessions in the United States, and they often profited by it. In such cases, and also when the western experts are invited to Poland, western governments pay for this training and we have no choice in what kind of training is offered. I am afraid that some western experts sent to Poland by institutions such as the IMF are people who had not been successful in the United States, or spent some time in Latin America also without success, and now try to make their careers in eastern Europe. I am afraid that this group does not have enough experience to understand the complicated situation in eastern European economies. Specifically, no one has yet come up with a convincing theory of how to go from central planning to market economy. We do not have a precedent for accomplishing this.

SR: Sometimes, the advisers that have gone to eastern Europe were themselves raised on socialist theories and were sympathizers of a socialist economy in their professional lives....

JP: This is why it is so important who is in power in Poland, the left or the right. If the social democrats are in power, they will tend to invite those western experts who support their views, say, those associated with the French Socialist Party or with the leftward-looking groups at American universities. A conservative government in Poland would prefer other solutions and other kinds of experts. It is of course normal that our society and our political classes are divided. You can find in Poland many political parties. But I would like to stress that in general, we have two big camps: left and right.

SR: A similar situation prevails here.


The leftist camp in eastern Europe is composed of those who prefer to link eastern Europe with Moscow, whereas the rightist camp prefers the Atlantic [NATO] option.
JP: And it is your choice, a choice for American diplomacy: who will be your partner in eastern Europe, the left or the right. And you should remember that the leftist camp in eastern Europe is composed of those who prefer to link eastern Europe with Moscow, whereas the rightist camp prefers the Atlantic [NATO] option. If you need political friends for the United States in Europe, you must find the people who accept the Atlantic option.

SR: Yes, but you should keep in mind that in this country, we are also divided, and there are people in the United States who are sympathetic to the Moscow option for eastern Europe.

JP: Yes, of course. But while I am here at the Republican Convention, I would like to find partners for the option I support.

Russian forces in Poland

SR: In August 1992, the Polish press has reported that the Russian (formerly Soviet) forces stationed in Poland have already broken several provisions of the treaty signed in Moscow in May 1992 by President Lech Walesa of Poland and President Boris Yeltsin of Russia. The Russians have not vacated the buildings in the town of Legnica which they were supposed to have vacated by now. Those premises which they have vacated are devastated beyond belief. Items such as sinks and faucets, electric outlets and wiring have been removed. The Russian troops polluted the ground in numerous villages by spilling industrial waste and used motor oil directly onto the ground. They also demand payment for buildings which they have occupied even though the buildings are located on Polish territory, were erected before the Russians moved in, and had not been sold to the Russians.
It is important who is in power in Poland, the left or the right. If the social democrats are in power, they will tend to invite those western experts who support their views, say, those associated with the French Socialist Party or with the leftward-looking groups at American universities.
JP: It is true that the Russian government asked my country to pay for the buildings they occupied in Poland. They also asked us to underwrite apartment construction in Russia for the families of officers withdrawn from Poland. We do not have money to build apartments for Russian officers, and we do not think we are obliged to. It was a historical mistake for the Soviets to be in Poland, and there is no political or moral reason for us to underwrite their military costs. They stayed in Poland without our consent since World War II. It was the communists' decision to keep them in Poland.

Communist agents

SR: In your estimation, what percentage of the parliament [elected in 1989 under the Round Table agreements] has been seriously compromised by serving the communist government in the past?

JP: In June 1992, the Interior Ministry published a list of members of Parliament who have been agents of the communist secret police in the past. The list contained 62 names.

SR: Out of about 400 members in the lower chamber?

JP: ThatŐs right. But this is not a full list of communist collaborators. The list of agents from the Ministry of Defense has not been made public; nor have those agents been revealed who currently have links to the foreign intelligence services. Minister Macierewicz published only the list of former agents. That means that we must still publish two other lists.

SR: Why hasn't the list been published in the Polish daily press?

JP: Because it was prohibited by the Ministry to publicize it without due process.

SR: But every member of Parliament has the list?

JP: Yes.


Our manager class continues to be composed of the young generation of the old nomenklatura.
SR: What about Zdzislaw Najder? He was accused of being an agent using the secret name of "Zapalniczka." JP: Mr. Najder is my political friend. He is a politician and former director of the Polish section of Radio Free Europe. He was adviser to Prime Minister Olszewski. It is true that he was investigated a number of times during the past twenty-five years by the police, and had to meet with them, but nothing serious has been found about him in the secret police files. It is not true that he was an agent. A lot of people from the Polish opposition had problems with the secret police, but this does not mean that they became agents.
The Russian government asked my country to pay for the buildings they occupied in Poland. They also asked us to underwrite apartment construction in Russia for the families of officers withdrawn from Poland.
SR: Why haven't General Jaruzelski and Jerzy Urban been brought to justice: Jaruzelski, for ordering or condoning the war against society, and Urban, for failing to disclose his knowledge of the Chernobyl disaster. Urban was one of the first in Poland to be notified about the Chernobyl catastrophe but chose not to notify the Polish health authorities immediately. The action or inaction of both men caused the deaths of many.

JP: Such actions depend on the Parliament. Since 62 MPs were agents, and a good number are left wing politicians, we have no chance to investigate publicly [anyone prominent in the communist period]. The present Parliament recommended that Prime Minister Olszewski and Interior Minister Macierewicz should stand trial for revealing the list of agents. There is no chance that they would want to investigate Jaruzelski and Urban. Our Parliament is not yet a parliament. For our society, the case of Jaruzelski is very clear. But for many politicians, the majority of the political class, he is a hero. This means that our Parliament is not representative at this point.

The interview was conducted on the University of Houston campus, 20 August 1992. Dr. Jan Parys, 41, is a graduate of the University of Warsaw and a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences. He was the first non-communist minister of defense in the Third Polish Republic. He resigned on 23 May 1992. On 7 June 1992 he and his supporters established a political party called Ruch dla Trzeciej Rzeczypospolitej. Among other members are Antoni Macierewicz, interior minister in the Olszewski cabinet, and Zbigniew Romaszewski, a prominent Solidarity activist. According to the information provided, the party declares "respect" for "religion, civil liberties, private property, principles of market economy, and strong government controlled by the people." It wants Poland to be "free of the Russian troups" and to be "culturally, economically and militarily connected with western democracies." It also wishes "to maintain contacts and exchange experiences with conservative parties of the West." Anyone who "has never been a member of the communist party or a secret service agent may become a member of [Ruch dla Trzeciej Rzeczypospolitej]." The party headquarters are located at 101 Saska Street, Warsaw, Poland, tel. (48-22) 170-254. 


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