From: Peter Scott Rogers Subject: The Speech (tm) discussion To: jlockett@io.com (Chepe Lockett) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:52:01 -0600 (CST) Here it is, as best as I've been able to collate & order it... ----------------------------------------------------------- >From psrogers Tue Jan 28 22:29:09 1997 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:29:09 -0600 (CST) HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Well, I just thunked myself in a tub for a couple of hours and reread my script, thinking copiously. A couple thoughts: * II:i:152-4 I'm thinking that one of the other characters on stage (Antigonus?) could make some gesticulation around this line; then, "as you feel doing thus" could be towards the gesture, and "and see withal the instruments that feel" could be accompanied by indicating the hands themselves. I think, if I hit the parallelism hard enough, the line will make sense (to me, at least); and it would parallel a gloss given in my "Signet classic" edition.... * III:ii:150-169 Hmm. You may not like this idea, but I wanna soliloquize here. Here's why. If I deliver this with other members of the court still present, either I am delivering it to them to some extent (making my speech political to some extent -- and I feel it crucial that this speech be from the heart), or not to them at all ("Huh, huh. He's not talking to those other guys at all. Cool. How are they reacting? Oh, wait, what was that Leontes said, though?"). Let me explain this another way; it comes across as a series of powerful images. Leontes, first about to follow everyone to Hermione... then he sort of crumples (inside[a lot] & out[slightly]), and stays on stage. Then he starts pleading to Apollo (in as dignified a manner as he can), not swearing by him. Nothing makes you look small like grovelling to God :). _And he's still in the *courtroom*._ I see the first series of deeds as a gradual dawning of just how impossible it is for him to undo all that he's done -- the speech finally winds itself down [up?] to the hopelessness of "And how his piety / Does my deeds make the blacker!" And the speech can be directed vaguely at [just over?] the audience. Hmm. If you're feeling dismissive about that, at least let me argue it with you tooth and nail at some point... =-p-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlockett@io.com Wed Jan 29 10:25:21 1997 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:25:21 -0600 (CST) > HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Thank you! 'Twas a farily horrid day in general, actually: good thing Jenn insisted on celebrating a day early. :-) > * II:i:152-4 I'm thinking that one of the other characters on stage > (Antigonus?) could make some gesticulation around this line; then, "as > you feel doing thus" could be towards the gesture, and "and see withal > the instruments that feel" could be accompanied by indicating the > hands themselves. It's possible, and something to play with when we block. I'd been thinking about it last night, actually (when I caught Antigonus up on the material we'd discussed the night before). The timing, and making sure the audience sees what is happening and understands it, would be tricky. I'd had the idea that perhaps Leontes clutches at... himself? (his hand, I mean!) his garment? Arden suggests "probably to be explained by stage-business, perhaps Leontes pulling Antigonus' beard... or nose.... But perhaps Leontes merely performs an action of 'feeling' something -- as of grasping one hand with the other." I kind of like the idea of yanking Amit's goatee, particularly given the tension we're setting up between the two of you in this scene ("Have I done well?"). > * III:ii:150-169 Hmm. You may not like this idea, but I wanna > soliloquize here.... Leontes, first about to follow everyone to > Hermione... then he sort of crumples (inside[a lot] & out[slightly]), > and stays on stage. Then he starts pleading to Apollo (in as > dignified a manner as he can), not swearing by him. Nothing makes you > look small like grovelling to God :). I, too, see it very much as a soliloquy. But I disagree about the problem of having other people on stage. First of all, the Lord has to be there, otherwise it's strange for him to enter with Paulina at line 174 yet still have to ask "What fit is this, good lady?" And we have to allow at least the possibility of the death of Hermione as a feminine conspiracy: evidently Hermione is far gone, since you view the body later, but Paulina has to have that moment with her off-stage to come up with this hare-brained scheme. And do you really think Nat's feisty free-thinker would _let_ any of these complicit court members follow her off with her wounded Queen? Basically, when Hermione, Paulina, 1L, and 2L depart the stage, we're left with Leontes, Lord/Officer, Cleomenes, Dion, and Servant. That's by no means a crowd, and they're characters we've trained the audience to ignore by the relative smallness of their roles (note that Cle/Dio don't get to speak in court (aside from the trial) until Act V). So the audience does not treat them as distractions. Our stage business will marginalize them anyway, to the edges of the stage, leaving the bare center expanse for you. I _do_ think it's a soliloquy. I don't think it's at all political, nor is it in any way directed towards, or have anything to do with, the few remnants remaining of the court. (If anything, the minor characters' presence reinforces the absence of both Camillo and Antigonus (who we off in the very next scene)). But I also think that the sight of the king, stripped to the soul (which leads up to our possible Act V opener), publicly confessing his wrongness and guilt and uncaring who hears his frantic plea to God/Apollo, is a very powerful image too, and outweighs making this a solo set-piece. Which is to say, of course, that I don't see it as a very "dignified" speech either -- it is someone who's lost everything. I've had students break into tears, afraid that their parent(s) was/were going to beat them for a grade I'd given. We hear of prisoners in the dock completely breaking down to ask the judge for mercy. I think it's more like that than trying to bargain with God. Tell me what you think! > Hmm. If you're feeling dismissive about that, at least let me argue > it with you tooth and nail at some point... You're welcome to do so, on any point and at any time. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psrogers Mon Feb 3 23:39:56 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:39:56 -0600 (CST) Man, I'm no good with contrition. One factor is that it's been a while since I felt any good ol' fire'n'brimstone penitent guilt, so I guess some sort of delving is in order. The thing I am most having trouble with at the moment is this: I know that Leontes feels sad, feels pain; I know that Leontes feels self-loathing; I know that Leontes feels at the same time a certain intellectual curiosity on his plight; I know that if Mammilius or Hermione appeared as a ghost, he would feel contrition (I'm just going to have to imagine killing off a beloved relative to get that emotion right -- have to use it for talking to the "statue")... I don't know why he feels sorry to Apollo. I mean, I *know*, but I don't really, internally know. Right now the idea that "oops, I defied your oracle" seems to me a bit of esoterica to be filed with my sparse knowledge of the Oedipus trilogy. I can't internalize how he feels about that. This may be one of those things I'll just have to figure out for myself, but what is Leontes' relationship with Apollo (which would dictate the exact *manner* in which he is sorry in this speech)? How would yon Pagans relate to Apollo? >From what little I know of mythology, I'd guess that he mainly wants to mitigate what further wrath could stem from the Gods. Two problems: 1) That ship [the Gods smiting him] has sailed, docked, and released all of its crew to a raucous shore leave; 2) he would then be trying to show contrition, or trying to make himself feel as contrite as possible. I think that whatever I end up doing, the remorse should stem naturally (naturalistically?) from his mental state. This may have exacerbated my suckiness in the Hell excercise. The other possibility is that he feels he has wronged God. I can see this making sense in a modern Christian framework, but how do you wrong Apollo? Apollo wouldn't shed a tear, he'd just smite you to death. I'm really at a loss to figure it out at the moment. I know what I need to do, I vaguely know what Leontes would do, but I still don't see what makes the speech go. =-p-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlockett@io.com Tue Feb 4 17:56:06 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:21:15 -0600 (CST) Some thoughts.... > Man, I'm no good with contrition. Try panic? Stark, naked fear? Part of the structure of the scene is that Judge Leontes has now been judged by somebody even bigger -- Apollo. > I mean, I *know*, but I don't really, internally know. Right now the > idea that "oops, I defied your oracle" seems to me a bit of esoterica > to be filed with my sparse knowledge of the Oedipus trilogy. I can't > internalize how he feels about that. Ah, but it's even bigger than defying the oracle. That was done in haste because you were so certain you were right. Now, not only have you been punished for that defiance of divine authority (and we really need to substitute the Christian God in here for Apollo -- new laws in the period were often used to keep actors from swearing on stage, "taking god's name in vain," so many a pagan setting is really to allow oaths and such without getting hauled into court. We won't change the line -- but keep the substitution in mind in your thoughts). Ahem, not only that, but you've just fully realized the extent of your mistake of "suspicion" (which is, itself, a nicer word, a euphemism, for the real "jealousy") and are feeling the punishment of _that_ as much as for this latest sin. > I think that whatever I end up doing, the remorse should > stem naturally (naturalistically?) from his mental state. But of course. I think we all noticed just how _fast_ that reversal -- oracle, denial, news of Mamillius (overanalytic folks would contend that this proves Apollo is precognitive -- I think Shakespeare just doesn't waste time! :-) happens. I think the very speed with which you're overturned has to have a certain effect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psrogers Wed Feb 5 00:56:46 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:56:46 -0600 (CST) Y'know, Joseph "Chepe" Lockett was mulling about this... > Some thoughts.... > > Man, I'm no good with contrition. > > Try panic? Stark, naked fear? Part of the structure of the scene is that > Judge Leontes has now been judged by somebody even bigger -- Apollo. I also want Leontes to "break down" -- i. e. very very early in the speech try to keep composure and lose it. If I could make it not seem fake, I think that would emphasize the pain of the tone in the speech. I also don't know how I should weigh my concern about the emotion of The Speech (tm) kind of strangling the lines. > Ah, but it's even bigger than defying the oracle. That was done in haste > because you were so certain you were right. Now, not only have you been > punished for that defiance of divine authority (and we really need to > substitute the Christian God in here for Apollo -- new laws in the period > were often used to keep actors from swearing on stage, "taking god's name > in vain," so many a pagan setting is really to allow oaths and such > without getting hauled into court. We won't change the line -- but keep > the substitution in mind in your thoughts). Ahem, not only that, but > you've just fully realized the extent of your mistake of "suspicion" > (which is, itself, a nicer word, a euphemism, for the real "jealousy") and > are feeling the punishment of _that_ as much as for this latest sin. I see. So the "great profaneness against thine oracle" is synecdochic for all of the offenses he realizes he has done against what is basically a Christian God. The profaneness he _feels_ is one of the sum total of his actions (enumerated shortly thereafter), even though the one he _describes_ there is specifically against the oracle. That motivates things much better. > > I think that whatever I end up doing, the remorse should > > stem naturally (naturalistically?) from his mental state. > > But of course. I think we all noticed just how _fast_ that reversal -- > oracle, denial, news of Mamillius (overanalytic folks would contend that > this proves Apollo is precognitive -- I think Shakespeare just doesn't > waste time! :-) happens. I think the very speed with which you're > overturned has to have a certain effect. I think there's a split second at III:ii:159 where he feels like he's been socked in the chest. Not the physical pain, but just having received such a sudden wound that the ground momentarily falls away beneath him. That might be the sort of disjointed feeling that gives him another split second to cast his mind back over the oracle... and realize Apollo was right, and it falls into place. I think 159-160 is just a sort of shocked, intellectual realization. I think that a thought this big needs a space to be thought in; and Hermione's death nips it in the bud and drags him back into the hell he's experiencing... Given that, 164-8 can be that trying to maintain composure (probably just coincidence that they also get people out of the room), but then, "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle!" can be the point where he loses it. He has to get the words out. He can't get the words out without breaking down. (I don't mind this one getting strangled here; better to err in that direction....) The rest of the speech, then. 171-3 scan to me as not pleading the way I've been doing it, but synonymous ways of saying "I'll do anything, Apollo, just rescind this punishment!" After that I want him to slacken somehow with the realization that each task is impossible. (Perhaps with a bit of ironic emphasis on "good Camillo.") 173-186 is very troublesome. It is a vast expanse of basically exposition that *is* emotionally charged, yes, but basically in a monotonous way. Of course, I'd better be wrong about that, because that'll flatten the whole thing. I am always tempted to detatch on the last lines of The Speech (tm). When I think about his emotional state at this point I think about Mark Twain's line after several people close to him died (not sure who exactly), about how it was a wonder how a man could take a blow like that and live. It think he gets pushed so far by that last line that he gets broken somehow. Now, that attitude may be poison to the scene, but in any case, this line *can* ease up in volume (within the constraints of Baker Commons) because Paulina's (loud) half-line entrance follows it. After that, he watches Paulina (I think I want to draw a strong contrast to the argument scene, where he might talk *at* Paulina but rarely *to* her), his attention lapsing in and out, her words all but identical to his thoughts. By the last speech (or maybe earlier), I think Leontes needs to have seen ahead those sixteen years. He has seen the life that awaits him -- sans wife, sans children, sans friends -- and it seems he ages all that time in a few moments. 258-260 have to be detatched I think, just because I can't imagine the words getting out at all if they were connected to the concepts they represent. Leontes is almost watching that strange sentence fall out of his mouth; he says "prithee" the way a man who doesn't often say "prithee" says "prithee." Also, I think it is a line that's so powerfully painful on its own that I think working against it would increase the emotional weight. I really like building up another outburst of tears (perhaps on reflection of 258-260) so that I can hit the *there* in line 263. 264-266 has always seemed like padding so far (I'll think it over). "Come and lead me / To these sorrows" has to my ears the ring of utter defeat. "Sorrows" sighs. So, that's how I see the scene getting put together at this point; yes, I'm an engineer at heart. Tinker, tinker. you're it =-p-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlockett@io.com Thu Feb 6 16:49:29 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:12:06 -0600 (CST) Sorry to be long in responding to this: job interviews. > I also want Leontes to "break down" -- i. e. very very early in the > speech try to keep composure and lose it. If I could make it not seem > fake, I think that would emphasize the pain of the tone in the speech. > I also don't know how I should weigh my concern about the emotion of > The Speech (tm) kind of strangling the lines. I like the idea of "breaking down" very much. Would this be, for example, on "I have too much believed mine own suspicion"? As for emotion strangling the lines... again, that's part of what drives me to suggest a very outward-driven delivery. The strangulation is most apt to happen when it's a quieter, inward thing. If the speech is frantic, babbling directly to Apollo on high, though we may get some vocal strain and pitch changes, it's unlikely that the throat will close up around the words (or, at least, so I envision it -- your vocal architecture is obviously different from mine). > I think there's a split second at III:ii:159 where he feels like he's > been socked in the chest. Not the physical pain, but just having > received such a sudden wound that the ground momentarily falls away > beneath him. Our editions must use different lineations -- I have III.ii.159 as "For being transported by my jealousies To bloody thoughts and to revenge, I chose <-- 159 Camillo for the minister to poison...." Where do you have 159? (If it's, as I guess, right after "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine Oracle!" then I like your image very much!) While we're here, I'll point out that above you actually use the simpler, more direct, Anglo-Saxon "jealousies" rather than the more Latinate, complex, distant "suspicion" of earlier on. I think that's a useful contrast to play: Shakespeare usually has a reason for choosing the words he does! (Hmm, given what you say below, I'm starting to guess that your 159 is in the "Apollo's angry, and the heavens themselves / Do strike at my injustice," which also works well). > Given that, 164-8 can be that trying to maintain composure (probably > just coincidence that they also get people out of the room) Right -- but note that it's only Paulina, Hermione, and Ladies who depart. I think it's vital that our courtiers (Cle,Dio,L/O) remain. The shock _they_ then portray, marginalized at the edges of the stage around their suffering king, is what gives _them_ the setup for their similar ineffectual stances in V.i. > "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle!" can be > the point where he loses it. He has to get the words out. He can't > get the words out without breaking down. (I don't mind this one > getting strangled here; better to err in that direction....) I agree. I'd note the wide-open nature of the vowels in this speech, in "Apollo," "pardon," even "profaneness." Gives me a real impression of full-throat delivery. > The rest of the speech, then. 171-3 scan to me as not pleading the > way I've been doing it, but synonymous ways of saying "I'll do > anything, Apollo, just rescind this punishment!" After that I want > him to slacken somehow with the realization that each task is > impossible. (Perhaps with a bit of ironic emphasis on "good > Camillo.") Yes, yes, this is much the way I've been seeing it. Note that the scansion throws emphasis on "good" -- you are publicly redeeming him from weeks of villanization. > 173-186 is very troublesome. It is a vast expanse of basically > exposition that *is* emotionally charged, yes, but basically in a > monotonous way. Of course, I'd better be wrong about that, because > that'll flatten the whole thing. Lineation difference again. Which is this, the recapitulation of events? Hmm. To avoid monotony, let's try varying a tone of public confession (okay, I realize the real story: here's what I did) and marvel at the virtue of Camillo -- who really is one of these unbelievably saintly characters, though not to the extent of Hermione. Would that help any? > I am always tempted to detatch on the last lines of The Speech (tm). > When I think about his emotional state at this point I think about > Mark Twain's line after several people close to him died (not sure who > exactly), about how it was a wonder how a man could take a blow like > that and live. It think he gets pushed so far by that last line that > he gets broken somehow. Now, that attitude may be poison to the > scene No, no, I think you have something there. We cannot have the whole speech full-bore: the hard part is balancing the loud and quiet so that we see the conflicting emotions of sadness now, rather than jealousy. I like those last being quiet, because, as you say, it sets you up to be re-disturbed by Paulina. > After that, he watches Paulina (I think I want to draw a strong > contrast to the argument scene, where he might talk *at* Paulina but > rarely *to* her), his attention lapsing in and out, her words all but > identical to his thoughts. I think lapsing is a bad idea, just because you need to be throwing audience attention back at Paulina. But I like the "identical" part: I think we might even have you nodding along, to give impetus to the fast pick-up of "Go on, go on" that completes the verse-line. > By the last speech (or maybe earlier), I think Leontes needs to have > seen ahead those sixteen years. He has seen the life that awaits him > -- sans wife, sans children, sans friends -- and it seems he ages all > that time in a few moments. A very good image. I like it. > 258-260 have to be detatched I think, just because I can't imagine the > words getting out at all if they were connected to the concepts they > represent. Leontes is almost watching that strange sentence fall out > of his mouth; he says "prithee" the way a man who doesn't often say > "prithee" says "prithee." Also, I think it is a line that's so > powerfully painful on its own that I think working against it would > increase the emotional weight. I'm not sure I quiet understand all the above, but I think I agree: "prithee" is an unusual word, and you're fighting, perhaps, yes, more successfully than you were before the "Apollo" breakdown. Think about using the ends of the lines -- not as full-scale stops as we might in junior-high readings of R&J, but as the natural pauses and miniscule reflections that make up normal speech, not so big as the Mametian gulfs I make fun of but more naturalistic. Look at the lines: "Thou didst speak but well Note how the parallel When most the truth: which I receive much better constructions split Than to be pitied of thee. Prithee, bring me neatly in the lines. To the dead bodies of my queen and son: Hard to say this? One grave shall be for both: upon them shall Start of new beat? The causes of their death appear, unto Which is you. Our shame perpetual. Once a day I'll visit A big hard thing. The chapel where they lie, and tears shed there Euphemism for tomb. Shall be my recreation. So long as nature Will bear up this exercise, so long First parallel I daily vow to use it. Come and lead me Second parallel To these sorrows." Euphemism for bodies. > I really like building up another outburst of tears (perhaps on > reflection of 258-260) so that I can hit the *there* in line 263. Possibly. Would you like to meet face-to-face sometime and really delve into this one, or do you prefer this email mode? > 264-266 has always seemed like padding so far (I'll think it over). It's setup for V.i. again -- "I'll do this as long as I live". Nature is not the universal force, but a reference to the strength of your own body: I'm going to do this penance until I just wear out and die. > "Come and lead me / To these sorrows" has to my ears the ring of utter > defeat. "Sorrows" sighs. Yes, and note it ends on a half-line. There's a definite pause here, and I think Shakespeare would not consider it maudlin to have you slowly arise and stagger (?) off-stage, perhaps combined with the rumble of thunder to set up III.iii. > So, that's how I see the scene getting put together at this point; > yes, I'm an engineer at heart. Tinker, tinker. As am I! When I was French King in AWEW, for that big speech about taking Helena I actually graphed the thing, figured out where the peaks and valleys might go. Katie & Bob wanted one peak, but I found two, charting where he was raging and where being reasonable, and they agreed. I think you could do much the same with Leontes. And now you're it. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psrogers Thu Feb 6 18:37:19 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:37:19 -0600 (CST) Sometime tonight I'll bounce you my original Big Long Message (tm) with the lineation that we have in our common text. I was using the (Signet Classic edition). Then I'll field all of your points. I'd just as soon continue this in email mode, because this stuff is tricky for me to the point that I can't discuss it on my feet. thanks =-p-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psrogers Thu Feb 6 23:30:06 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:30:06 -0600 (CST) Arg. I'll respond to all the specifics later; I'm just commenting on the lineations in my Folger Library & Signet editions of the play. I'm truly Leonteed out for a few days. {One side comment; I wish I'd had the presence of mind to do a true fire'n'brimstone first act [i.e. shmuck] interaction with Antigonus today. I guess I still had the taste of Act Five very much in my brain} Y'know, Joseph "Chepe" Lockett was mulling about this... Sorry to be long in responding to this: job interviews. > I also want Leontes to "break down" -- i. e. very very early in the > speech try to keep composure and lose it. If I could make it not seem > fake, I think that would emphasize the pain of the tone in the speech. > I also don't know how I should weigh my concern about the emotion of > The Speech (tm) kind of strangling the lines. I like the idea of "breaking down" very much. Would this be, for example, on "I have too much believed mine own suspicion"? As for emotion strangling the lines... again, that's part of what drives me to suggest a very outward-driven delivery. The strangulation is most apt to happen when it's a quieter, inward thing. If the speech is frantic, babbling directly to Apollo on high, though we may get some vocal strain and pitch changes, it's unlikely that the throat will close up around the words (or, at least, so I envision it -- your vocal architecture is obviously different from mine). > I think there's a split second at III:ii:159 where he feels like he's > been socked in the chest. Not the physical pain, but just having > received such a sudden wound that the ground momentarily falls away > beneath him. Our editions must use different lineations -- I have III.ii.159 as "For being transported by my jealousies To bloody thoughts and to revenge, I chose <-- 159 Camillo for the minister to poison...." {I meant the lines "Apollo's angry; and the Heavens themselves / Do strike at my injustice."} Where do you have 159? (If it's, as I guess, right after "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine Oracle!" then I like your image very much!) While we're here, I'll point out that above you actually use the simpler, more direct, Anglo-Saxon "jealousies" rather than the more Latinate, complex, distant "suspicion" of earlier on. I think that's a useful contrast to play: Shakespeare usually has a reason for choosing the words he does! (Hmm, given what you say below, I'm starting to guess that your 159 is in the "Apollo's angry, and the heavens themselves / Do strike at my injustice," which also works well). {*ding*} > Given that, 164-8 can be that trying to maintain composure (probably > just coincidence that they also get people out of the room) {I mean "her heart is but o'ercharged" etc.} Right -- but note that it's only Paulina, Hermione, and Ladies who depart. I think it's vital that our courtiers (Cle,Dio,L/O) remain. The shock _they_ then portray, marginalized at the edges of the stage around their suffering king, is what gives _them_ the setup for their similar ineffectual stances in V.i. > "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle!" can be > the point where he loses it. He has to get the words out. He can't > get the words out without breaking down. (I don't mind this one > getting strangled here; better to err in that direction....) I agree. I'd note the wide-open nature of the vowels in this speech, in "Apollo," "pardon," even "profaneness." Gives me a real impression of full-throat delivery. > The rest of the speech, then. 171-3 scan to me as not pleading the > way I've been doing it, but synonymous ways of saying "I'll do > anything, Apollo, just rescind this punishment!" After that I want > him to slacken somehow with the realization that each task is > impossible. (Perhaps with a bit of ironic emphasis on "good > Camillo.") Yes, yes, this is much the way I've been seeing it. Note that the scansion throws emphasis on "good" -- you are publicly redeeming him from weeks of villanization. > 173-186 is very troublesome. It is a vast expanse of basically > exposition that *is* emotionally charged, yes, but basically in a > monotonous way. Of course, I'd better be wrong about that, because > that'll flatten the whole thing. Lineation difference again. Which is this, the recapitulation of events? {exactly} Hmm. To avoid monotony, let's try varying a tone of public confession (okay, I realize the real story: here's what I did) and marvel at the virtue of Camillo -- who really is one of these unbelievably saintly characters, though not to the extent of Hermione. Would that help any? > I am always tempted to detatch on the last lines of The Speech (tm). > When I think about his emotional state at this point I think about > Mark Twain's line after several people close to him died (not sure who > exactly), about how it was a wonder how a man could take a blow like > that and live. It think he gets pushed so far by that last line that > he gets broken somehow. Now, that attitude may be poison to the > scene No, no, I think you have something there. We cannot have the whole speech full-bore: the hard part is balancing the loud and quiet so that we see the conflicting emotions of sadness now, rather than jealousy. I like those last being quiet, because, as you say, it sets you up to be re-disturbed by Paulina. > After that, he watches Paulina (I think I want to draw a strong > contrast to the argument scene, where he might talk *at* Paulina but > rarely *to* her), his attention lapsing in and out, her words all but > identical to his thoughts. I think lapsing is a bad idea, just because you need to be throwing audience attention back at Paulina. But I like the "identical" part: I think we might even have you nodding along, to give impetus to the fast pick-up of "Go on, go on" that completes the verse-line. > By the last speech (or maybe earlier), I think Leontes needs to have > seen ahead those sixteen years. He has seen the life that awaits him > -- sans wife, sans children, sans friends -- and it seems he ages all > that time in a few moments. A very good image. I like it. {258-60 == "Take me to the bodies of my queen and son"} > 258-260 have to be detatched I think, just because I can't imagine the > words getting out at all if they were connected to the concepts they > represent. Leontes is almost watching that strange sentence fall out > of his mouth; he says "prithee" the way a man who doesn't often say > "prithee" says "prithee." Also, I think it is a line that's so > powerfully painful on its own that I think working against it would > increase the emotional weight. I'm not sure I quiet understand all the above, but I think I agree: "prithee" is an unusual word, and you're fighting, perhaps, yes, more successfully than you were before the "Apollo" breakdown. Think about using the ends of the lines -- not as full-scale stops as we might in junior-high readings of R&J, but as the natural pauses and miniscule reflections that make up normal speech, not so big as the Mametian gulfs I make fun of but more naturalistic. Look at the lines: "Thou didst speak but well Note how the parallel When most the truth: which I receive much better constructions split Than to be pitied of thee. Prithee, bring me neatly in the lines. To the dead bodies of my queen and son: Hard to say this? One grave shall be for both: upon them shall Start of new beat? The causes of their death appear, unto Which is you. Our shame perpetual. Once a day I'll visit A big hard thing. The chapel where they lie, and tears shed there Euphemism for tomb. Shall be my recreation. So long as nature Will bear up this exercise, so long First parallel I daily vow to use it. Come and lead me Second parallel To these sorrows." Euphemism for bodies. > I really like building up another outburst of tears (perhaps on > reflection of 258-260) so that I can hit the *there* in line 263. Possibly. Would you like to meet face-to-face sometime and really delve into this one, or do you prefer this email mode? > 264-266 has always seemed like padding so far (I'll think it over). {You seem to get what I'm referring to} It's setup for V.i. again -- "I'll do this as long as I live". Nature is not the universal force, but a reference to the strength of your own body: I'm going to do this penance until I just wear out and die. > "Come and lead me / To these sorrows" has to my ears the ring of utter > defeat. "Sorrows" sighs. Yes, and note it ends on a half-line. There's a definite pause here, and I think Shakespeare would not consider it maudlin to have you slowly arise and stagger (?) off-stage, perhaps combined with the rumble of thunder to set up III.iii. > So, that's how I see the scene getting put together at this point; > yes, I'm an engineer at heart. Tinker, tinker. As am I! When I was French King in AWEW, for that big speech about taking Helena I actually graphed the thing, figured out where the peaks and valleys might go. Katie & Bob wanted one peak, but I found two, charting where he was raging and where being reasonable, and they agreed. I think you could do much the same with Leontes. And now you're it. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psrogers Tue Feb 11 15:01:23 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:01:23 -0600 (CST) Ah. Finally some last minute reexamination of the Trial (hope you get to this before rehearsal): > > I also want Leontes to break down -- i. e. very very early in the > > speech try to keep composure and lose it. If I could make it not seem > > fake, I think that would emphasize the pain of the tone in the speech. > > I also don't know how I should weigh my concern about the emotion of > > The Speech (tm) kind of strangling the lines. > > I like the idea of breaking down very much. Would this be, for example, > on "I have too much believed mine own suspicion"? I think the "Apollo, pardon my profaneness..." bit. He still has to struggle through the rest of his instructions to The Ladies (tm) after "I have too much believed...." > As for emotion strangling the lines... again, that's part of what drives > me to suggest a very outward-driven delivery. The strangulation is most > apt to happen when it's a quieter, inward thing. If the speech is > frantic, babbling I wouldn't call it babbling; this is one of the places he seems to make sense! I think part of what makes the speeches go is that Leontes' logical thinking is actually going the *right* way, and it serves to recapitulate his guilt to him, over and over. > directly to Apollo on high, though we may get some vocal > strain and pitch changes, it's unlikely that the throat will close up > around the words (or, at least, so I envision it -- your vocal > architecture is obviously different from mine). > > I think there's a split second at III:ii:159 where he feels like he's > > been socked in the chest. Not the physical pain, but just having > > received such a sudden wound that the ground momentarily falls away > > beneath him. > > Our editions must use different lineations -- I have III.ii.159 as > > "For being transported by my jealousies > To bloody thoughts and to revenge, I chose <-- 159 > Camillo for the minister to poison...." Why yes. That's exactly what I was thinking. > Where do you have 159? (If it's, as I guess, right after "Apollo, pardon > / My great profaneness 'gainst thine Oracle!" then I like your image very > much!) I would argue against that, because he has already had the realization that he screwed up, and some understanding of the damage he's caused, with the "Apollo's angry..." line. Logically, that's where he'd feel the ground falling from his feet; recapitulating that point doesn't count as epiphanal (?) from my perspective. > (Hmm, given what you say below, I'm starting to guess that > your 159 is in the "Apollo's angry, and the heavens themselves / Do strike > at my injustice," which also works well). Yes. > While we're here, I'll point out that above you actually use the > simpler, more direct, Anglo-Saxon "jealousies" rather than the more The word sneers easier :) so it pushes along the speech's self-recrimination... > Latinate, complex, distant "suspicion" of earlier on. I think that's a Maybe that suspicion line is to the Ladies? Risky, but there may be something to that. > useful contrast to play: Shakespeare usually has a reason for choosing the > words he does! > > Given that, 164-8 can be that trying to maintain composure (probably > > just coincidence that they also get people out of the room) > > Right -- but note that it's only Paulina, Hermione, and Ladies who depart. Yes, the stage direction was, I think, my first hint on that point of blocking. >:] > I think it's vital that our courtiers (Cle,Dio,L/O) remain. The shock > _they_ then portray, marginalized at the edges of the stage around their > suffering king, is what gives _them_ the setup for their similar > ineffectual stances in V.i. >From a self-centered perspecive, they give me some people to not pay attention to. :) > > "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle!" can be > > the point where he loses it. He has to get the words out. He can't > > get the words out without breaking down. (I don't mind this one > > getting strangled here; better to err in that direction....) > > I agree. I'd note the wide-open nature of the vowels in this speech, in > "Apollo," "pardon," even "profaneness." Gives me a real impression of > full-throat delivery. I agree, but I think one can again get more mileage out of it if Leontes does not *want* to give it a full-throat delivery, but *has* to speak it in that way. It forms in his mind reflexively as a way of saying "I'm sorry," but gets tsunamied by the weight of sorrow and guilt built up behind it. To put it another way, I don't think the audience will care as much if they see Leontes deliberately putting on the little Guilt mask in order to convince Apollo to treat him better, let him get back together with his wife and his friends, and perhaps give him a pony. (Which was one of my problems with the Hell excercise, if it were to translate directly to performance, though I see how the emotions there were useful.) But, instead, he *feels* the guilt so unrestrainably that it comes out with "full-throat" (ahem). > > The rest of the speech, then. 171-3 scan to me as not pleading the > > way I've been doing it, but synonymous ways of saying "I'll do > > anything, Apollo, just rescind this punishment!" After that I want > > him to slacken somehow with the realization that each task is > > impossible. (Perhaps with a bit of ironic emphasis on "good > > Camillo.") > > Yes, yes, this is much the way I've been seeing it. Note that the > scansion throws emphasis on "good" -- you are publicly redeeming him from > weeks of villanization. Ironic is perhaps not the right word; I just meant that it back-references all the "good queen"s we've had earlier. > > 173-186 is very troublesome. It is a vast expanse of basically > > exposition that *is* emotionally charged, yes, but basically in a > > monotonous way. Of course, I'd better be wrong about that, because > > that'll flatten the whole thing. > > Hmm. To avoid monotony, let's try varying a tone of public confession > (okay, I realize the real story: here's what I did) and marvel at the > virtue of Camillo -- who really is one of these unbelievably saintly > characters, though not to the extent of Hermione. Would that help any? I see those feelings as present all along, but it may be possible to separate them out for more emotional texture (this is turning into emotional chem lab.) I still don't know. My gut instinct is to make it one giant arc from the unrelenting full-out pain of the first lines to the quiet, semi-contemplative (yes if I play out the guilt of the rest of the speech I've earned some semi-contemplation at the end) finishing lines. But I think it's too many lines to stick to just do one thing like that. There's got to be something else to throw in. > > I am always tempted to detatch on the last lines of The Speech (tm). > > When I think about his emotional state at this point I think about > > Mark Twain's line after several people close to him died (not sure who > > exactly), about how it was a wonder how a man could take a blow like > > that and live. It think he gets pushed so far by that last line that > > he gets broken somehow. Now, that attitude may be poison to the > > scene > > No, no, I think you have something there. We cannot have the whole speech > full-bore: Careful with the double entendres > the hard part is balancing the loud and quiet so that we see > the conflicting emotions of sadness now, rather than jealousy. I like > those last being quiet, because, as you say, it sets you up to be > re-disturbed by Paulina. > > > After that, he watches Paulina (I think I want to draw a strong > > contrast to the argument scene, where he might talk *at* Paulina but > > rarely *to* her), his attention lapsing in and out, her words all but > > identical to his thoughts. > > I think lapsing is a bad idea, just because you need to be throwing > audience attention back at Paulina. We define "lapsing" differently. I think Leontes'[s] eyes stay on Paulina that whole time. Whether he's actually listening to the words or listening to his own thoughts is another matter. Come to think of it, it's really a moot point from the audience perspective :). > But I like the "identical" part: I > think we might even have you nodding along, to give impetus to the fast I might feel a little silly nodding, but that is what it would take to get the agreement across to the audience clearly. > pick-up of "Go on, go on" that completes the verse-line. What if go on go on were something of a surprise? > > By the last speech (or maybe earlier), I think Leontes needs to have > > seen ahead those sixteen years. He has seen the life that awaits him > > -- sans wife, sans children, sans friends -- and it seems he ages all > > that time in a few moments. > > A very good image. I like it. > > > 258-260 have to be detatched I think, just because I can't imagine the > > words getting out at all if they were connected to the concepts they > > represent. Leontes is almost watching that strange sentence fall out > > of his mouth; he says "prithee" the way a man who doesn't often say > > "prithee" says "prithee." Also, I think it is a line that's so > > powerfully painful on its own that I think working against it would > > increase the emotional weight. > > I'm not sure I quiet understand all the above, but I think I agree: Perhaps more clarification: "Take me to the dead bodies of my queen and son" is, I think, something Leontes never thought he would say. He never even thought he'd hear that sentence, let alone from his own mouth, talking about himself. I think it's an example of being within the scene and examining the scene at the same time, in part because of the almost technical planning that follows the line. > "prithee" is an unusual word, and you're fighting, perhaps, yes, more > successfully than you were before the "Apollo" breakdown. Think about > using the ends of the lines -- not as full-scale stops as we might in > junior-high readings of R&J, but as the natural pauses and miniscule > reflections that make up normal speech, not so big as the Mametian gulfs I > make fun of but more naturalistic. Look at the lines: > > "Thou didst speak but well Note how the parallel > When most the truth: which I receive much better constructions split > Than to be pitied of thee. Prithee, bring me neatly in the lines. ^^^ Brief change in mood -- refuting & encouraging Paulina. > To the dead bodies of my queen and son: Hard to say this? ^^^ Yes, hard to say that. Strange to say that. Almost unthinkable; difficult to really connect it to the concept, difficult to visualize the two people he's known and loved for so long, lifeless. > One grave shall be for both: upon them shall Start of new beat? > The causes of their death appear, unto Which is you. ^^^ This is the sort of planning that makes me think he's not in full-bore tears. > Our shame perpetual. Once a day I'll visit A big hard thing. > The chapel where they lie, and tears shed there Euphemism for tomb. ^^^ The specific image in his mind of visiting the chapel leads him to building up & holding back tears, motivating "*tears* shed *there* / Shall be my recreation." Or at least that's my thinking. > Shall be my recreation. So long as nature > Will bear up this exercise, so long First parallel > I daily vow to use it. Come and lead me Second parallel > To these sorrows." Euphemism for bodies. I don't think he *means* it euphemistically. To him, "sorrows" and "bodies" are the same. > > 264-266 has always seemed like padding so far (I'll think it over). > > It's setup for V.i. again -- "I'll do this as long as I live". Nature is > not the universal force, but a reference to the strength of your own body: > I'm going to do this penance until I just wear out and die. I see what it means. I see why it's there, in terms of setting things up. I meant padding in the sense that that sentence feels extraneous when I try to deliver it. > > "Come and lead me / To these sorrows" has to my ears the ring of utter > > defeat. "Sorrows" sighs. > > Yes, and note it ends on a half-line. There's a definite pause here, and > I think Shakespeare would not consider it maudlin to have you slowly arise > and stagger (?) off-stage, perhaps combined with the rumble of thunder to > set up III.iii. Followed by the satyrs break-dancing to loud rave music. Right. whew. you're it. =-p-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlockett@io.com Wed Feb 12 18:55:14 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:11:25 -0600 (CST) We'll see how much of this actually got handled last night... I have to tag you back, after all, so you can write me another lengthy email. :-) > > I like the idea of breaking down very much. Would this be, for example, > > on "I have too much believed mine own suspicion"? > I think the "Apollo, pardon my profaneness..." bit. Yep. Hopefully we got what you wanted in the blocking last night. I by no means think we're "finished" with that speech -- but I rather like the progression of movements we arrived at. Obviously, if we have some sort of breakthrough, we can reblock. But I'm more than happy to continue delving into the text proper. > Yes, the stage direction was, I think, my first hint on that point of > blocking. >:] Good smiley. I have to ask, though, given your humorous allusion to "wide-open vowel sounds" last night -- am I being too fuzzy-headed here for your taste? (I mean with stuff like inflections and parallelism and short lines and what language words come from). We may just be speaking from very different backgrounds, though I think each one has something to contribute. Consider this a progress check on our electronic conversation. :-) > > > "Apollo, pardon / My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle!" > I think one can again get more mileage out of it if > Leontes does not *want* to give it a full-throat delivery, but *has* > to speak it in that way. It forms in his mind reflexively as a way of > saying "I'm sorry," but gets tsunamied by the weight of sorrow and > guilt built up behind it. Yes. Especially with you down at the aisle the way we currently have you, this needs to get punched a bit more than it did last night (when you had new movements and a floppy script in your hand!). The weight of the sadness certainly can (nay, should) remain, but we have to find a way of juicing up the volume more for the library side of the audience. > To put it another way, I don't think the audience will care as much if > they see Leontes deliberately putting on the little Guilt mask in > order to convince Apollo to treat him better, let him get back > together with his wife and his friends, and perhaps give him a pony. Oh, for heavens' sake, absolutely. I fully agree with you that the emotion is honest, and there's no Machiavellian deal-with-the-gods going on whatsoever. Guilt and grief. > I still don't know. My gut instinct is to make it one giant arc from > the unrelenting full-out pain of the first lines to the quiet, > semi-contemplative (yes if I play out the guilt of the rest of the > speech I've earned some semi-contemplation at the end) finishing > lines. How do you feel about last night's work -- separating that giant arc into a series of swings, from public to private? > We define "lapsing" differently. I think Leontes'[s] eyes stay on > Paulina that whole time. Whether he's actually listening to the words > or listening to his own thoughts is another matter. Come to think of > it, it's really a moot point from the audience perspective :). Exactly. :-) The part I worry about is the eyes, on which we agree. > I might feel a little silly nodding, but that is what it would take to > get the agreement across to the audience clearly. Well, I think we can do without if we get Paulina as close and direct as she does in the kneeling bit there. > > pick-up of "Go on, go on" that completes the verse-line. > What if go on go on were something of a surprise? Hmm. Maybe. I wish I'd remembered this suggestion last night. Do you mean a surprise even to Leontes himself -- "Keep going [what am I saying?] Go on. [Yes, this feels right.]"? > Perhaps more clarification: "Take me to the dead bodies of my queen > and son" is, I think, something Leontes never thought he would say. > He never even thought he'd hear that sentence, let alone from his own > mouth, talking about himself. > > I think it's an example of being within the scene and examining the > scene at the same time, in part because of the almost technical > planning that follows the line. I think you're exactly right. > > One grave shall be for both: upon them shall Start of new beat? > > The causes of their death appear, unto Which is you. > ^^^ This is the sort of planning that makes me think he's not in > full-bore tears. Probably not -- full-bore tears are hard to pull off consistently with such a close audience! But you do have to be Way Sad, so that the audience holds all this in their minds until V.i. > > Our shame perpetual. Once a day I'll visit A big hard thing. > > The chapel where they lie, and tears shed there Euphemism for tomb. > > ^^^ The specific image in his mind of visiting the chapel leads him to > building up & holding back tears, motivating "*tears* shed *there* / Shall > be my recreation." Or at least that's my thinking. Good. I rather like the image of a man crying while talking about "recreation." > I don't think he *means* it euphemistically. To him, "sorrows" and > "bodies" are the same. Oh, yes. I just wondered whether "bodies" might be too hard to say, so that you intentionally substitute, knowing that they are the same, the word "sorrows," which, as you say, is very sigh-ful sounding. Regarding the "padding" of the last few lines (as long as my body will last, etc.) (which my lousy editor just erased without appeal)... I'm thinking about it. I think the public-private swing, again, will help bring those out, but let me know what you think. Which is, of course, just another way of saying... TAG! ----------------------------------------------------------- ... and in the end, the "itness" was on me. later =-p-= ----------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ Peter Rogers zzz. /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_. Rice University |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-` '---''(_/--' `-'\_) -----------------------------------------------------------